DRAFT — books: Contribution Guidelines

books
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This is a DRAFT. These guidelines are a work in progress and open for discussion. Please reply with suggestions, corrections, or questions. Once finalized, this topic will become a wiki for ongoing community editing.

What is the Books Catalog?

The Books catalog documents the existence of books, magazines, journals, and other printed or published materials. We catalog metadata (titles, authors, publishers, ISBNs, images), not content. Do not upload copyrighted text or reproduce the contents of books.

What Belongs Here

  • Fiction and non-fiction books
  • Magazines, journals, and periodicals
  • Chapbooks, pamphlets, zines
  • Audiobooks and e-books
  • Box sets and collected editions
  • Sheet music publications
  • Academic publications

What Does NOT Belong Here

  • Comics and graphic novels
  • Brochures and product catalogs
  • Postcards, sticker albums, phone books
  • Homework, letters, notes, user manuals

Comics vs. Books: Graphic novels, comic strip collections, and comic book collections do not belong in the Books catalog. The deciding factor: if the majority of action and dialogue happens in illustrated panels (sequential art), it doesn’t belong here. If illustrations decorate a text narrative, it belongs in Books.

The Data Model

The Books catalog has three entity types:

Book

A Book is the umbrella entry that groups all editions, translations, and printings of the same title together.

A Book does not physically exist — it represents the concept: “Moby-Dick by Herman Melville” regardless of which publisher printed it.

Edition (Physical Publication)

An Edition is a specific physical (or digital) published object — the thing you hold in your hands, put on your shelf, buy, and sell. Every distinct printing, translation, or format of a book is a separate Edition.

Each Edition is linked to a Book. Even if a book has only one known printing, it still has one Edition under one Book.

Credit (Person or Company)

A Credit represents a person or organization: an author, publisher, illustrator, printer, editor, imprint, or any other credited entity. Credits are shared across Books and Editions — for example, the same “Faber & Faber” Credit is linked from every Edition they published.

Why “Book” and “Edition”?

The terminology can be counterintuitive because in everyday language we say “I have a book” when we mean the physical object. Another example: when someone says “I read that book,” they’re referring to the Book — not any specific printing or edition. On ctlgs:

  • Book = the title + author (groups all editions together)
  • Edition = the physical object (a specific printing you can hold)

Some contributors use capitalization to distinguish: “Book” (the entity) vs. “book” (the everyday word).

Which Form to Use

Combo Form (Book + Edition)

The combo form creates a Book and Edition together in one step, automatically linking them. This is the recommended way to add a new entry to the database.

Use it when: You’re adding a title that doesn’t yet exist in the database, along with your specific copy.

How it works:

  1. Select “Book + Edition” from the submission options
  2. Fill in the Book section (title, author, genre, etc.)
  3. Fill in the Edition section (format, publisher, ISBN, etc.)
  4. Write a submission summary and submit — both entities are created and linked

Edition-Only Form

Use it when: The Book already exists and you’re adding another edition of it. You can also use the “Add Edition” button on a Book’s page.

Book-Only Form

Use it when: You want to create a Book entry without adding a specific edition yet (rare).

Credit Form

Use it when: You need to create or edit a person or company entry — adding a biography, external links, etc. Credits can also be created inline while editing a Book or Edition.

Edit Form

The standard edit form provides labeled fields for all entity properties. It auto-generates from the schema and handles linked entities (credits, books) with search-and-select dropdowns.

Edit Images Page

A dedicated page for managing an entity’s images. You can upload, reorder (drag and drop), enable/disable, and delete images.

Book Fields

Title (required)

The title of the book. Enter it in the language of first publication.

If the book was originally published in Japanese, the title should be in Japanese. If it was originally published in English, use the English title.

English Title

If the Book title is not in English, enter the English translation of the title here. This helps English-speaking users find the book in search — a book titled “Vier Hochzeiten und ein Todesfall” won’t appear when someone searches “Four Weddings and a Funeral.”

  • If there is a well-known published English title (from an English translation), use that
  • If there is no accepted English title, provide a reasonable translation — other users can refine it later
  • If the book was originally published in English, leave this blank

Authors

Link to the Credit entity for each author. Start typing to search for existing Credits, or create a new one inline.

For anthologies or collections with multiple authors, list the editor(s) here if they are the primary credited name on the cover.

Genre

Select one or more genres from the dropdown. You can also type custom genres not in the preset list — popular custom genres may be added to the dropdown over time.

Genres describe the content of the book, not the format. Some genre entries describe the form/structure (e.g., Novel, Novella, Short Stories, Essays) — these are valid and help categorize what kind of Book it is.

Languages

The original language(s) of the book.

Dates

Dates associated with the book as a whole:

  • First Published — when it was first published in any form
  • Copyright — the original copyright date

External Links

Links to relevant external resources (e.g., Wikipedia article, publisher page, author’s website).

Notes

Free-text notes about the book. Use sparingly for information that doesn’t fit elsewhere.

Edition Fields

Title (required)

The title as printed on this specific Edition. This may differ from the Book title for translations, revised editions, or alternate printings.

Book

The linked Book entity. Every Edition should be linked to a Book.

Credits

The people and organizations credited in this specific Edition. Each credit has a role and a name (linked Credit entity).

Common credit roles to always include:

Role When to Use
Author The writer of the text
Publisher The publishing house
Imprint A subdivision/brand under which the publisher publishes
Illustrator Artist who created interior illustrations
Cover Art by / Cover/Jacket Design by Cover artist or designer
Printed by The printer (if stated in the book)
Translated by For translations
Editor If this is an edited collection
Foreword by / Introduction by / Afterword by Authors of supplementary text
Designed by Interior/book designer
Typeset by Company that did the typesetting
Publisher Series The series within a publisher (e.g., “Penguin Classics”)

There are over 450 roles available. If none fits, select “Other.”

Display As (Name Variations)

If a credit is printed differently on the Edition than their main profile name (e.g., “Faber and Faber” instead of “Faber & Faber”), you can use the Display as feature. Click the edit link next to a credit to set the display text.

The linked Credit stays the same — only the displayed text changes. An asterisk (*) appears after credits with a custom display name.

Format

The physical format of the Edition:

Flexible covers: Paperback, Mass-Market Paperback, Trade Paperback, Soft Cover, Flexibound

Rigid covers: Hardback, Board Book

Periodicals: Magazine, Pulp Magazine, Bedsheet Magazine, Digest, Journal

Other: Audiobook, e-Book, Chapbook, Zine, Box Set, Spiral-Bound, and more

Language

The language of this specific Edition (may differ from the Book’s original language for translations).

Location

The publisher’s location as printed on the title page or copyright page. This was one of the most debated fields on Bookogs, so here is the guidance:

What to enter: The city and/or country as printed in the book. Example: “Oxford; New York” if both are printed on the title page.

What NOT to enter:

  • Where the book was manufactured/printed (use a “Printed by” credit for that)
  • The territory of sale (unless that is specifically what is printed)
  • Long lists of publisher office addresses

If the book does not print a location, leave this field blank rather than guessing.

Dates

Dates specific to this Edition. Use the type dropdown to indicate what each date represents:

  • This Edition Published — when this specific edition was published
  • First Printing — date of the first printing of this edition
  • Reprinted — reprint date(s)
  • Copyright — the copyright date printed in this Edition
  • Cover Date — for periodicals, the date printed on the cover
  • This Impression — if the impression date is printed
  • First Published — can repeat the first publication date for reference

Enter dates as they appear in the book. Format is flexible — YYYY, YYYY-MM, or YYYY-MM-DD are all acceptable.

Page Count

Enter the highest printed page number in the book.

If the book has roman numeral front matter (e.g., xvi pages) followed by numbered pages (e.g., 500 pages), enter “500” — the highest printed number.

For books where numbering restarts (e.g., two works in one volume, each starting at page 1), use the format “250 & 250” and explain in the Notes field.

Identifying Codes

One of the most important sections for distinguishing different Editions. Add all codes printed in your copy:

  • ISBN 13 / ISBN 10 — The International Standard Book Number. Always add if present.
  • SBN — The older 9-digit standard (pre-1974).
  • ISSN — For periodicals/serials.
  • Barcode (EAN/UPC) — The barcode number, if different from the ISBN.
  • Printer’s Key — The number line on the copyright page (e.g., “2 4 6 8 10 9 7 5 3 1”). Crucial for identifying specific printings.
  • Series Number — The number within a publisher’s series.
  • Volume Number / Issue Number — For periodicals.
  • Edition No. — The edition number (1st edition, 2nd edition, etc.)
  • Impression/Printing No. — The impression or printing number, if stated or derivable.
  • Price — The printed cover price.
  • Library of Congress Catalog Card Number — If printed (usually on verso of title page).
  • Dewey Decimal Classification Number — If printed (usually on verso of title page).
  • Catalog Number / Product Code — Publisher’s internal code.

Font

The typeface used for the body text, if stated in the book (often on the copyright page or in a colophon).

Chapters

A list of chapter titles or table of contents. Useful for collections, anthologies, and multi-work volumes.

Notes

Free-text notes about this specific Edition:

  • Print history details
  • Distinguishing features of this printing
  • Errors or corrections in the text
  • Details about variant covers or dustjackets

Credit Fields

Title (Name) (required)

The primary name of the person or organization. Use the most commonly known form of the name.

For pen names, use the pen name if that’s how the person is primarily known (e.g., “Mark Twain” not “Samuel Clemens”). The real name can be recorded in the Credit’s profile.

Profile

A short biographical note or description. Optional.

External Links

Links to relevant external resources (personal website, Wikipedia, publisher website).

Publishers and Imprints

An imprint is a subdivision or trade name under which a publisher publishes. One publisher may have several imprints (e.g., Penguin Random House publishes under dozens of imprints).

How to credit publishers and imprints:

  • Always add the Publisher credit
  • If the book is published under a specific imprint, also add an Imprint credit
  • If the book says “Published by X, an imprint of Y,” credit X as Imprint and Y as Publisher
  • When a publisher has changed names over the years, use the name as it appeared at the time of publication
  • If the book is part of a publisher series (e.g., “Oxford World’s Classics”), add a Publisher Series credit

How Closely Related Must Editions Be?

Editions of a Book should represent substantially the same title. This includes:

  • Different printings (hardback, paperback, reprints)
  • Different translations
  • Revised or expanded editions (if the core content is the same)
  • Different formats (print, audiobook, e-book)

Editions should NOT be linked under the same Book if:

  • A short story is entered as a “Book” and anthologies containing that story are entered as “Editions” — this is incorrect. As discussed in the forum: “A book can contain a story, but a story cannot contain a book.” Each anthology should be its own Book.
  • Two completely different books happen to share a title
  • A compilation fundamentally changes the nature of the content

Rule of thumb: If you would describe one Edition as “a different printing of” or “a translation of” the other, they belong under the same Book. If they are substantially different books that happen to share content, they should be separate Books.

Duplicate Book Titles

Book titles do not need to be globally unique. If two completely different books share the same title (e.g., two different novels both called “The Road”), simply create two separate Books with the same title. The author and cover images will differentiate them. There is no need for a “(2)” suffix.

Duplicate Credit Names

When two different people or companies share the same name, use numbered disambiguation: “John Smith” for the first entry, “John Smith (2)” for the second.

Do not add role qualifiers to names (e.g., avoid “John Smith (Illustrator)”) — this causes problems when a person works in multiple roles.

The first-created Credit keeps the plain name. New, different entities with the same name get the number suffix. Do not rename existing Credits to add numbers.

Incorrect Credits (Miscredits)

If a book prints an incorrect credit (e.g., wrong illustrator name), enter the credit as printed in the book. Use the Notes field to explain the error. This preserves the fidelity of what is actually printed while documenting the correction.

Periodicals (Magazines, Journals)

Magazines and periodicals belong in the Books catalog. The recommended approach:

  • Each issue is an Edition
  • Use the Periodical Title credit role to link to the magazine series Credit
  • Set the appropriate format: Magazine, Digest, Pulp Magazine, Bedsheet Magazine, Journal, Zine, etc.
  • Use Volume Number, Issue Number, and Cover Date in the identifying codes and dates
  • Issues may optionally be grouped under a Book, but it is acceptable to create Editions without a Book for periodicals

Images

Image Order

Follow this order when uploading images:

  1. Front cover — Always the primary image. If there is a dust jacket, photograph it with the jacket on.
  2. Spine — Vertical format, as the book would sit on a bookshelf.
  3. Back cover
  4. If images 1–3 were with a dust jacket, images 4–6 can repeat the process without the jacket (front, spine, back).
  5. Title page — Usually near the front, showing title, author, and publisher. If the title page spans two pages, photograph both as a single image.
  6. Copyright page (colophon/verso of title page) — Contains publishing details, print history, and identifying codes.
  7. Contents page and any other pages that help identify the edition.

Image Guidelines

  • Maximum image size: 10 MB
  • Do NOT upload full book contents. We catalog the existence of books, not reproduce them. Uploading copyrighted text is not permitted.
  • Dust jacket inner flaps are usually unnecessary unless they help distinguish editions/printings.
  • If the front cover is missing or damaged, use the title page as the primary image.
  • For children’s books or non-standard layouts, arrange images in the order they appear in the book.

Collections

The Books catalog supports three collection lists, available on Editions:

  • Collection — Editions you own
  • Read — Editions you have read
  • Wantlist — Editions you want to acquire

Tips for New Contributors

  1. Search first — Before adding a new Book, Edition, or Credit, search to make sure it doesn’t already exist. Use ISBNs, titles, and author names to check.
  2. Enter what you see — Transcribe data from the physical book in front of you. Don’t guess or look things up on other sites if the information isn’t in the book itself.
  3. ISBNs matter — Always enter ISBNs and other identifying codes. They are the primary way to distinguish editions.
  4. Images help — Even one or two photos of the cover and copyright page make an entry much more useful.
  5. Use the summary field — When submitting or editing, write a brief note explaining what you added or changed (e.g., “Initial creation” or “Added ISBN and printer’s key”).
  6. Link credits properly — Search carefully for existing Credits before creating new ones. Check for name variations.
  7. Ask in the forum — If you’re unsure how to handle a specific case, ask in the community forum. Many common questions have already been discussed.

These guidelines are a DRAFT and will be updated as conventions evolve. Discussion and suggestions are welcome — please reply below.

1 Like
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Regarding ‘work’:
I’m not sure how I feel about the use of the term ‘work’, since a Book is not really an abstract work, but more a “virtual” publication that represents the way in which a work (or collection of works, or partial work) is presented.

So, a collection of 10 short stories published in however many Editions would be a Book, and a collection of another 10 different short stories would be a different Book. A collection of 8 of the first short stories, 1 of the other, and an additional 11 entirely different short stories compiled all in one volume would be a third Book. Each short story is a ‘work’. I think the term is going to become a point of confusion for many. This is clarified a little later on, but needs not to be confusing early-on, or the reader will have their attention distracted by arguing with the text in their heads, instead of reading it :smiley:

Multiple values
Some guideline is required for dictating whether to put multiple values in one field, or in multiple fields of the same type. A description field is absolutely going to be required for the latter, plus a sensible representation of it on the Edition page.

For example, I’ve been entering multiple prices in a single text string with slashes separating them and any qualifing text (country, currency, tax signifier, etc). If these were required to be entered separately, the Edition page would need to group or concatenate them sensibly (and in order) when displaying in order to avoid the effect - which the page has now - of looking like a wall of stats.

I’m not sure about this… periodicals will often not need a Book. Perhaps a Book is only really required (for periodicals)) if there is more than one Edition of the same issue (eg, a territory-specific variant). This is clarified later, but this earlier statement is therefore misleading.

We need to lay out some rules about when not to use the display name variation.
eg, the printer Clays has gone through many names (as have plenty of other companies) including “Clays Ltd, St Ives plc”, “Clays of Bungay”, “Clays Ltd, Elcograf S.p.A.”. Which criteria that determine whether a new credit is required for the company need to be clarified.

Formats:
Formats definitely need an explanation for each. I’m entirely unsure when I should be using some of these formats. I’ve mostly used ‘Mass-Market Paperback’ and I’m pretty sure it’s wrong for some. Some of my confusion will be because a lot of the terms are US-centric, and those terms are not entirely in line with those same terms’ use in the UK. I’m also not entirely sure what the definitions of all the UK terms are either.
We certainly need a ‘Paperback - UK-A format’, ‘Paperback - UK-B format’, and ‘Paperback - UK-C format’ entries. But they won’t be the only ones still needing to be added.

If this is the route we’re going down, apart from needing to edit the submission I just made :smiley: it also means that people who are uncredited for their work would also be only noted, and not be linked with their other credits, yes?

If the credit fields are given descriptions (and I really really hope they are), these could be used to highlight uncredited and miscredited. So in Battleblade Warrior - books - ctlgs we could have
Illustrator: David Gallagher (Miscredited)
Illustrator: Alan Langford (Uncredited)
in the same Edition. That would both describe the state of what’s printed and document the actual correct credit.

3

Thanks for the quick feedback. I’m not a fan of the word “work” and would like to get away from it.

Keep in mind this is the first attempt at the guidelines and is based on pulling all information (the old forum, wiki, and current forum) into one place. I’m in favor of what will be simplest, consistent, and helpful for collectors.

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Ok, I have removed the “works” concepts from the DRAFT guidelines.

5

I think, within the guidelines we should strongly stick to the “Book” / “Edition” distinction.
New users might get confused with the Book = entity / book = everyday word differentiation.

I see that the rules for the “English Title” now differ from what was discussed before
“English Title” on ‘books’ - General - ctlgs
I don’t get why we don’t stick to the ‘direct translation of the original language title’. By the current rule, I would have to search if there is a translated edition already. And the ‘won’t appear in searches’ argument is kind of irrelevant, because it still wouldn’t even if it’s in the “English Title” field.

6

An ‘entity’ is just a collection of properties and their values in the database that represents a concept. Book, Edition, and Credit are all entities. I think it’s a useful term to allow its easy qualification from the use of the more everyday term of ‘book’ and ‘edition’. It’s handy to use capitalisation to differentiate ‘Book’ from ‘book’, but only if you know that’s what that means. Saying ‘book entity’ or ‘Book entity’ to mean the thing in the database makes the distinction too.

I appreciate that people might find the term confusing though, perhaps it just needs a definition at the start of the guidelines?

It’s hard work reading these draft rules and not thinking of them as The Rules That Must Be Obeyed :smiley: but these are all just proposals for discussion!

I think your concern would be addressed by adding an “or if you don’t know the English title use a translation” clause.

.

I think there needs to be a rule #1 the same as discogs - only submit an Edition if you have it in front of you. Otherwise we’ll end up with the sort of garbage data that the other book cataloguing websites have if an Edition is created from their database, or a retailer website, or something. A ‘Book’ might be fair game for web-find submission. Might. But not an Edition. Discuss :smiley:

1 Like
7

Well, I personally do get the guideline isn’t in stone and we’re in a discussion about it. My wording was just a simplification to get my point across.
A part of me thinks the “English Title” field is not actually needed (especially since it’s content doesn’t appear in searches). There might be some kind of informational value to a direct translation of the original language title, for someone who doesn’t speaks said language. If there is an actual English translated version, that title would appear on the listed editions.

I think to use the capitalized “Book” for it’s ctlgs meaning and “book” for the everyday meaning of ctlgs’ “Edition” is quite handy. For the Guideline though, a continuous use of the terms as presented in the database is the better way to establish the meanings for new users.

Edit:
I’m all for that:

8

I think using the known English title, if one exists, is far more useful in ensuring that the database stays accurate. Your ‘Four Weddings and a Funeral’ example is a very good one.

On the assumption that web pages can be tweaked to show the English title under/next to the primary title (in a search results list) if it exists, and the English title is included in the search query (so it actually finds the relevant Book), consider:-

You have entered this in its first-published title, in German; “Vier Hochzeiten und ein Todesfall” and used a literal translation of the title to “Four Weddings and a Bereavement”. If another user were to search for their English copy of “Four Weddings and a Funeral”, they wouldn’t find it; they wouldn’t know it existed. They would create a new Book with their Edition, and we’d be left with two Books for the same thing.

They would then need to be merged, if it was discovered. Then someone else would come along and do the same thing again, so it’d need to be merged, again. It’d be a never-ending stream of merges. For every title that this applies to.

We certainly can’t expect everybody to know the English title of every book they add, but someone will know it, and it can be adjusted in time. It’s not ideal, and we’d inevitably get the problem I described sometimes, but less often, and there is no ideal solution for something like this.

Of course, the problem becomes more annoying if there is more than one established English translation of the title :stuck_out_tongue:

edit: in fairness, I can see a flaw in my logic: after the first merge, the Book will have both German and English language Editions in it, so if the Book result can be prioritised to appear before the Editions in a search, and the English title is displayed in the results list along with the primary title, and the Edition titles are considered when returning a Book result (ie, a Book is returned if the searched title string appears in any of its Editions’ title), then it should help reduce the issue. However, it’s still beneficial to have the established English title visible against the non-English original in a search, so an English-speaking user can see it’s the right Book, despite the title not being in English.

Phew. Hope that makes sense!

heh, edit again: after another think… after an English Edition is merged with the non-English Book, the English Edition will return in a search, and the relevant (and post-merge correct) Book will be linked, so if a new Edition needs to be added, the correct Book is derived from the found Edition, and the problem oughtn’t to manifest any more. So maybe the English title is less relevant after all.

So I hope I’ve given you all something entertaining to read with your morning cuppa, and thanks for letting me waste your time :smiley:

9

Exactly my point. As soon as an English edition gets added, the English Title field is useless,

But the correct Book tied to an English translated edition of Four Weddings and a Funeral would still be Vier Hochzeiten und ein Todesfall, so any other entry would be incorrect anyways.

10

I just had an idea and edited the English Title on Vier Hochzeiten… accordingly
Vier Hochzeiten und ein Todesfall - books - ctlgs
Any thoughts on this variant?

11

I’m not too keen, sorry :stuck_out_tongue:

If it’s not the title and only the title as-on-the-book, it’s not really fulfilling its job of being just the data. Unless the title is given with both languages in that way, I think it’s misleading. I can’t say I strongly object to it though. Sometimes a more relaxed input might be preferable with some fields. I can see the sense in both versions being helpful.

Fundamentally, though, I think it should either be the established English title (ultimately, once it’s known), rather than someone’s interpreted translation. Or it shouldn’t be present at all. I think it’s more helpful if it’s present.

I just translated “Vier Hochzeiten und ein Todesfall” using my new browser (switched to Vivaldi yesterday after spending five days pissed of with Edge, after spending two months pissed off with Firefox after its recent updates after over a decade of use) and it translated the title as “Four weddings and one death”. Who’s to say which translation is better? If there is an established English title, I think it makes most sense to use that. If you know it.

1 Like
12

Considering our example of “Vier Hochzeiten und ein Todesfall”, the most obviously useful English langauge title (to help English-speaking users find the book) is “Four Weddings and a Funeral” as that’s the title of the film of which this book is the German-language novelisation.

In this specific case the actual relationship we want to model is:

“Vier Hochzeiten und ein Todesfall” (Book) → novelisation of → “Four Wedding and a Funeral” (Film).

That’s a credit type relationship that would allow anyone interested in the film to find related novelisations (given that novelisations by other authors are separate books).

1 Like
13

I understand that it was primarily done to provide a “separate marketplace” for comics. Presumably in order to keep what might be a valuable collector market as something that can be commercialised on it’s own.

However, from a modelling perspective it’s counter-intuitive - A graphic novel is a book with a publisher, author, illustrator and all the same metadata. Comics are essentially periodicals likes magazines.

There are of course elements of the comics market that are a bit different, like the same comic being issued with variant cover artwork at the same time. But I still think that would fit inside the books model.

When we get to the point of having a marketplace, a virtual “shop-front” for Comics and Graphic Novels would be my suggestion for managing the user experience for collectors only interested in that type of publication.

Also, personally as someone who enjoys graphic novels, I find the approach of “othering” this medium annoying.

Here are some other practical outcomes of this:

  • Manga (goes in comics), related Light Novels (that’s a book): what if I collect both?
  • Children’s picture book with narrative artwork panels (that’s a comic): that’s not where I’d expect to find it, it’s a book for someone who can’t read yet.

Given the catalogs now cohabit under the same URL, what would be the value in maintaining this distinction?

2 Likes
14

Completely agree with all of that.

1 Like
15

I also agree with all of this. It was one my pet peeves that comics were in a separate database. There is so much overlap, and continuing to separate comics just enforces some of the old and moldy attitudes towards them. They should fit the Books model just fine.

1 Like
16

The better translation is the one that works backwards too.
I’m quite sure, if you translate “Four Weddings and one death” to German, it’ll say “Vier Hochzeiten und ein Tod” while “Four Weddings and one bereavement” is going to be (with a high probability) “Vier Hochzeiten und ein Todesfall”.

But you don’t find the Book by searching for the ‘English Title’ anyways, which is my main (but not sole) point in questioning the ‘established title’ idea.
“Vier Hochzeiten…” is also a very special case, by having English language source material.

17

Why ‘if different from the ISBN’? I would always list them both as long as they’re present on the item.

18

We should definitely recommend that all data is captured as a preference.

Well, my question was rhetorical - the point I wanted to highlight was that it’s not always possible to settle on one literal translation. Perhaps this case is clearer, but it won’t always be so. Either we have one alternate title field, or we have an unspecified number as many as required.

We either add the ability to specify any number of alternate titles, with a descriptor that indicates what that variant represents, or we stick to the one field that has a single known best-established value (as close as can be determined).

Either we have something like

Four Weddings and a Funeral (English Title)

Four Weddings and a Death (Literal English Translation)

Four Weddings and a Bereavement (Literal English Translation)

or we have the one value that’s without multiple possible variations

English Title: Four Weddings and a Funeral

I’d prefer the former option, especially when the literal English translation of a non-English title is very different to the established English title, as that has wider scope and is therefore more helpful. How helpful it is is up for grabs, but more is better than less :slight_smile: That option requires development work, though.

{the forum software always removes my space padding that’s supposed to separate related points from one another}

Along with these rules, we’re also going to need mechanisms to safeguard against vandalism, and develop processes that allow us to recover vandalised or wrongly deleted data/images. Also mechanisms to stop a vandal in their tracks before they’re allowed to run rampant.

We’ll also need some system where opinion on hard-to-recover changes can be collated before the changes are made - eg, a voting system that requires more than one user’s agreement before removal of a submission.

We also don’t want to run into the trap that discogs is in whereby an anti-vandalism system is inherently linked to a data-voting system. The two should be separate.

19

As I’m too detail obsessed in many ways (unfortunately), so I would argue against the unlimited fields, despite those having some pro-arguments for them. But there’s just too much room for useless and/ or incorrect data junk. To stay at the example:

is not a literal translation but an oversimplified one. While technically ‘Tod’ and ‘Todesfall’ refer to the same… incident, I can’t think of a sentence in which you could swap Todesfall to Tod without having to rephrase it completely to make it make sense. That means they are not interchangable. Vier Hochzeiten und ein Tod could refer to anything, even a pigeon dropping dead at one of the weddings, while Vier Hochzeiten und ein Todesfall makes it clear that we have five human related incidents that most likely are leading to a family & friends get-together.
Plus, and I’m admittedly going into hairsplitting territory now, Four Weddings and a Funeral is no proper English Title either, because: there is no English language edition under this (or any) title, only the source material is known under that title (as it’s mentioned in the Notes of the Book).

20

Yes, you’re speaking from the position of someone who understands the language of the material. A user who doesn’t understand the language will just turn to an online translation system and won’t be aware of the nuances. That’s the benefit of peer review - to improve the data beyond its first incarnation. I may enter a literal translation from an online translator. You may then improve it with a better literal translation from your understanding of the language. I say it’s best to ultimately have the title by which it is best known in English in the “English Title” field!

Anyway, we’ve both stated our positions on this matter. From this point on we’re just arguing our own same position repeatedly in different words. It’s something that will be decided by the input of others :smiley: We have options.